Post by Minya Collowen on Apr 14, 2007 9:10:55 GMT -5
This was a little comparison/contrast bit that i stumbled upon at stonedog.org....it's humorous but true. So, I thought maybe we should compare/contrast WoT with LotR and have a fun little debate on whether you think they're the same or totally different:
The difference between J.R.R. Tolkien and Robert Jordan can be summed up with their portrayals of Gandalf the Grey and Moiraine Sedai, and this difference also speaks volumes about how complicated literature has become in the last century. During The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, there is a definite progression in Gandalf's character from mysterious figure to confident saviour; his transformation from the Grey to the White in the second book is the most obvious sign. When Gandalf made decisions, you probably can't find me a reader who didn't trust his judgment. There was never any danger that Gandalf would have bad thoughts, or betray the forces of good to join the dark side. Sure, he might get a little fierce from time to time, but look who he was saddled with! Those hobbits would drive me up the wall if I was a near-omnipotent sorcerer. Essentially, Gandalf was good, and the text never really suggested otherwise.
Moiraine Sedai fumes. Moiraine Sedai coldly stares. Moiraine Sedai lectures in icy tones. Moiraine Sedai isn't out to make friends. Enemies, yes. Friends, no. In TEOTW, for the first half of the book, Moiraine has that Gandalf quality about her; she knows more things than any character could ever possibly know, and she's got magic tricks up the wazoo. But as the pages go by, she becomes more complicated, more human... and more vague. The reader discovers that Moiraine has an agenda of her own to follow, and feet the consequences. What is important, though, is that her agenda is never clearly stated. We have an idea, of course, which goes something like this:
Keep the Dragon Reborn alive and ready for the Last Battle.
piggy off as many people as possible in following point one.
In traditional literature, fantasy or otherwise, heroes and villains have been fairly clear-cut and obvious. By the first fifty pages, you knew who the good guys were and who the bad guys were. The problem with this is that there is little room for character development, and the author must resort to stereotypes and caricatures to keep the story moving. This results in a small number of characters with obvious development and the rest are feeted to hell. The Lord of the Rings is like that; Frodo undergoes a great deal of character development, but the rest are papered over. I'm not saying that such authorial behaviour is bad, necessarily. The effect that Tolkien created is very much a mythical one, and that was what he was going for. That's cool.
However, in the nineties, myth just isn't enough. We hunger for more, we hunger for real people that we as readers can relate to (that's the big thing now, to relate to characters we read about or see on the screen). We can't relate to mythical characters because there aren't that many around anymore. The pervasive media has destroyed so many myths, so many misbegotten memories, so many fairy tales and rumours. Babe Ruth was an American hero for decades until the media let us in on the dirty secret: he was a boozing, misogynist bastard. Now, we're not so sure he's a hero. (Actually, I am sure he's not a hero.) Michael Jordan is a mythical character these days, larger than life, but how long will that last?
So, in The Wheel of Time series, the Gandalf-like character could not be so broadly drawn, so clear-cut and direct, because we wouldn't buy it. (This is something that other, less talented fantasy writers haven't fully realized yet.) Instead, Robert Jordan, in his remarkable insightfulness and vision, creates Moiraine Damodred, a woman with power, secrets, and a hidden agenda that is more mysterious in its simplicity than it ever could be if it were complex and obtuse. The similarities between Gandalf and Moiraine pop up like dandelions in a vacant lot.
They both shepherd their charges at the beginning, but not right away - after their charges have experienced conflict and fear.
They display their powers only when they have to, and even then they tend to keep it low-key for the same reason - the bad guys might notice.
They leave their charges alone to pursue other interests and dilemmas, intending to return. However, their return is certainly timely (Gandalf at the River Eldar, Moiraine in Tear).
They both seem to disappear from the scene while saving the lives of their charges.
The key, of course, is that Gandalf returned more powerful than ever. It remains to be seen whether Jordan will choose to extend the analogy that far. Still, through all of this, Moiraine's character continues to be the most interesting one in WOT's whole cast. We know she wants Rand to make it to the Last Battle, and we have had the chance to glimpse her thoughts from time to time, but there are still many facets of her personality to be explored. There are several moments in the books when we are uncertain of her plans and how they will help our heroes, and that adds to the story's magic. Does Moiraine want Rand alive for all of humankind, or is she more interested in making sure the Tower survives the Last Battle? When did Moiraine know Rand was the Dragon, and how did she think she was going to keep him alive? How much did she learn at Rhuidean, and from the snakes and foxes? So many questions swirl around the image of Moiraine that it's tough to grab even a couple and wrangle some sense out of them.
* * *
Perhaps one of the most debated topics among Wheel of Time fans has been Moiraine's eventual return, and how it will happen. Egwene had a dream of Thom pulling a blue stone out of a fire, which suggests to most people that Thom will rescue Moiraine from some peril, and the assumption is that she's facing that peril in the 'finn Land (The World of the Snakes and Foxes). Let's say that is the most logical assumption to make; then we have a few questions to resolve:
How will Thom find out Moiraine needs help?
How does Thom get to the 'finn Land?
How will he rescue her?
First question: At the moment, Thom isn't with anybody who has dreams or visions, so that severely limits the options here. A Wise One dreamwalker could come in handy, but again, he's SOL on that account, too. So at the moment, this is up in the air. Perhaps a plot contrivance would require Thom or others to go to the 'finn Land, and they happen to discover Moiraine trapped there.
Second question: When we last saw Thom at the end of 'Winter's Heart', he was heading north out of Ebou Dar, probably with Valan Luca's menagerie, anticipating Mat's eventual company. Where are they going to go? They've got Seanchan to the northwest (Amadicia) and the east (Illian), so their only choice is north/northeast. This would put them directly in the path of Perrin's crew, who are chasing the Shaido southeast through Ghealdan. This is important because Perrin knows how to get to the 'finn Land: the Tower of Ghenjei. Travelling to the Tower wouldn't a problem, since Perrin has a couple of Asha'man to make gateways.
Third question: We know that the rules for dealing with the 'finns are specific (Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind), so obviously breaking the rules might be the key to defeating them. All the major players have courage in spades, but the fire is a different story. However, who else is in that menagerie? Aludra, who has invented matches. We know Thom can play music, and somebody has to have some iron. As well, Jordan makes a point of Olver being fascinated by the Snakes & Foxes game; perhaps he will discover a way to beat the game, which might then help our heroes in beating the 'finns.
It would be interesting if this situation was the excuse needed for all three of the ta'veren to get back together, but Thom has to be the impetus, he has to be the reason Moiraine is saved. While it's become a foolish game to guess what will happen in the next book, I can see how Perrin and Mat's plot threads could join together relatively soon, so perhaps this will be something to look forward to.
Moiraine is definitely my favourite character from WOT, and I can't wait for her to return. I suspect that many other avid readers feel the same. I would treasure WOT for Moiraine's character alone; everything else is a bonus. I don't blame Thom for falling in love with her, but I do hope that he shows more sense than all the other characters and practices safe sex when he does find her.
Moiraine Sedai fumes. Moiraine Sedai coldly stares. Moiraine Sedai lectures in icy tones. Moiraine Sedai isn't out to make friends. Enemies, yes. Friends, no. In TEOTW, for the first half of the book, Moiraine has that Gandalf quality about her; she knows more things than any character could ever possibly know, and she's got magic tricks up the wazoo. But as the pages go by, she becomes more complicated, more human... and more vague. The reader discovers that Moiraine has an agenda of her own to follow, and feet the consequences. What is important, though, is that her agenda is never clearly stated. We have an idea, of course, which goes something like this:
Keep the Dragon Reborn alive and ready for the Last Battle.
piggy off as many people as possible in following point one.
In traditional literature, fantasy or otherwise, heroes and villains have been fairly clear-cut and obvious. By the first fifty pages, you knew who the good guys were and who the bad guys were. The problem with this is that there is little room for character development, and the author must resort to stereotypes and caricatures to keep the story moving. This results in a small number of characters with obvious development and the rest are feeted to hell. The Lord of the Rings is like that; Frodo undergoes a great deal of character development, but the rest are papered over. I'm not saying that such authorial behaviour is bad, necessarily. The effect that Tolkien created is very much a mythical one, and that was what he was going for. That's cool.
However, in the nineties, myth just isn't enough. We hunger for more, we hunger for real people that we as readers can relate to (that's the big thing now, to relate to characters we read about or see on the screen). We can't relate to mythical characters because there aren't that many around anymore. The pervasive media has destroyed so many myths, so many misbegotten memories, so many fairy tales and rumours. Babe Ruth was an American hero for decades until the media let us in on the dirty secret: he was a boozing, misogynist bastard. Now, we're not so sure he's a hero. (Actually, I am sure he's not a hero.) Michael Jordan is a mythical character these days, larger than life, but how long will that last?
So, in The Wheel of Time series, the Gandalf-like character could not be so broadly drawn, so clear-cut and direct, because we wouldn't buy it. (This is something that other, less talented fantasy writers haven't fully realized yet.) Instead, Robert Jordan, in his remarkable insightfulness and vision, creates Moiraine Damodred, a woman with power, secrets, and a hidden agenda that is more mysterious in its simplicity than it ever could be if it were complex and obtuse. The similarities between Gandalf and Moiraine pop up like dandelions in a vacant lot.
They both shepherd their charges at the beginning, but not right away - after their charges have experienced conflict and fear.
They display their powers only when they have to, and even then they tend to keep it low-key for the same reason - the bad guys might notice.
They leave their charges alone to pursue other interests and dilemmas, intending to return. However, their return is certainly timely (Gandalf at the River Eldar, Moiraine in Tear).
They both seem to disappear from the scene while saving the lives of their charges.
The key, of course, is that Gandalf returned more powerful than ever. It remains to be seen whether Jordan will choose to extend the analogy that far. Still, through all of this, Moiraine's character continues to be the most interesting one in WOT's whole cast. We know she wants Rand to make it to the Last Battle, and we have had the chance to glimpse her thoughts from time to time, but there are still many facets of her personality to be explored. There are several moments in the books when we are uncertain of her plans and how they will help our heroes, and that adds to the story's magic. Does Moiraine want Rand alive for all of humankind, or is she more interested in making sure the Tower survives the Last Battle? When did Moiraine know Rand was the Dragon, and how did she think she was going to keep him alive? How much did she learn at Rhuidean, and from the snakes and foxes? So many questions swirl around the image of Moiraine that it's tough to grab even a couple and wrangle some sense out of them.
* * *
Perhaps one of the most debated topics among Wheel of Time fans has been Moiraine's eventual return, and how it will happen. Egwene had a dream of Thom pulling a blue stone out of a fire, which suggests to most people that Thom will rescue Moiraine from some peril, and the assumption is that she's facing that peril in the 'finn Land (The World of the Snakes and Foxes). Let's say that is the most logical assumption to make; then we have a few questions to resolve:
How will Thom find out Moiraine needs help?
How does Thom get to the 'finn Land?
How will he rescue her?
First question: At the moment, Thom isn't with anybody who has dreams or visions, so that severely limits the options here. A Wise One dreamwalker could come in handy, but again, he's SOL on that account, too. So at the moment, this is up in the air. Perhaps a plot contrivance would require Thom or others to go to the 'finn Land, and they happen to discover Moiraine trapped there.
Second question: When we last saw Thom at the end of 'Winter's Heart', he was heading north out of Ebou Dar, probably with Valan Luca's menagerie, anticipating Mat's eventual company. Where are they going to go? They've got Seanchan to the northwest (Amadicia) and the east (Illian), so their only choice is north/northeast. This would put them directly in the path of Perrin's crew, who are chasing the Shaido southeast through Ghealdan. This is important because Perrin knows how to get to the 'finn Land: the Tower of Ghenjei. Travelling to the Tower wouldn't a problem, since Perrin has a couple of Asha'man to make gateways.
Third question: We know that the rules for dealing with the 'finns are specific (Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind), so obviously breaking the rules might be the key to defeating them. All the major players have courage in spades, but the fire is a different story. However, who else is in that menagerie? Aludra, who has invented matches. We know Thom can play music, and somebody has to have some iron. As well, Jordan makes a point of Olver being fascinated by the Snakes & Foxes game; perhaps he will discover a way to beat the game, which might then help our heroes in beating the 'finns.
It would be interesting if this situation was the excuse needed for all three of the ta'veren to get back together, but Thom has to be the impetus, he has to be the reason Moiraine is saved. While it's become a foolish game to guess what will happen in the next book, I can see how Perrin and Mat's plot threads could join together relatively soon, so perhaps this will be something to look forward to.
Moiraine is definitely my favourite character from WOT, and I can't wait for her to return. I suspect that many other avid readers feel the same. I would treasure WOT for Moiraine's character alone; everything else is a bonus. I don't blame Thom for falling in love with her, but I do hope that he shows more sense than all the other characters and practices safe sex when he does find her.
You haven't read WoT? That's terrible! You need to read it asap.