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Post by Majsju on Nov 25, 2003 18:28:26 GMT -5
Uhm...A few things to kill your theory...The DO says in LoC that noe even he can't step out of time, i.e resurrecting someone killed with balefire. It really doesn't matter how strong the balefire is, it burns the thread before the weave was made, so it can't be Be'lal, or anyone killed with balefire.
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Post by Min on Nov 25, 2003 22:06:52 GMT -5
anyways SH's been around before Belal was even free from SG
Here's some examples of possible SH sightings in TEOTW that I didn't mention in the above.
When Rand first sees a fade TEOTW Ch1 page4 “There was only shadow to see in the hood, but he felt hatred as sharply as if he could see a snarling face, hatred for everything that lived. Hatred for him most of all, for him above all things.”
I would like to compare this to how SH reacts in TGH prologue to the image of the taveren. TGH prologue pagexxii “He noticed the Myrddraal looking at the figures, trembling; and unless he misjudged entirely, its trembling was no longer fear, but hatred.”
Later, when Rand talks to Mat about their respective encounters with the dark stranger: TEOTW Ch1 p14 “I could swear that he hated me, that he wanted to kill me.”
We know that SH does indeed want Rand dead for in TDR prologue he orders Bors to kill him.
In Chapter 6 p85, when Rand is bringing Tam through the woods a fade comes along the road and at one points stares exactly where Rand&Tam are. Again Rand feels the hatred.
Later, Ch8 p109, Lan is talking to Rand about fades and says: “Moraine Sedai and I both tried to kill the one that was here last night, and we failed every time.”
Surely a regular fade should not pose too much of a problem for an AS and warder, but this one did.
In what I think is Rand’s first trip to t’a’r, Ch9 p124, Rand runs into a fade: “We have been waiting for you,” the Myrddraal hissed.
We’ve been told somewhere that Fades don’t dream(I don’t recall where offhand) so they probably can’t enter tar either. Since this one is there, its probably SH.
Ch26 page397 The infamous Fade vs Thom encounter “The black cowl froze Rand where he stood. He tried to summon the void, but it was like fumbling after smoke.” P399 “RUN!” The air in the square flashed an eye-searing blue, and Thom began to scream, but even in the middle of the scream he managed a word. “RUN!”
The first bit I mention because Rand is unknowingly reaching for the source… and fails. This is something we’ve noticed with SH do to many DF’s, but have yet to see him apply it to other channelers. This could be proof that he can, or it might just be that Rand aint too good with embracing the source yet. In the second bit of the quote we see a blue flash. Most people attribute this to Thom having some sort of fireworks or a power wrought blade. Unfortunately Thom is wary of fireworks and does not have a power wrought blade. Also, from the quote, it seems that the flash scares Thom. That it was something he had not expected. I think this is something the fade did… some sort of channelling perhaps(which we know SH can do).
As we learn more about Fain in Ch47 p713 “Three years ago, a Halfman came for him in the town of Murandy. Fain was terrified, of course, but it is considered a very great honor among Darkfriends to be so summoned. Fain believed he had been chosen for great things, and he had, though not in the manner he believed. He was brought north to the Blight, to the Blasted Lands. To Shayol Ghul. Where he met a man with eyes of fire, who named himself Ba’alzamon.”
If this fade is SH, as I believe it is, this could show how Fain recognises his releasor in TGH, whom I also claim to be SH.
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Lazarus88
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Post by Lazarus88 on Dec 19, 2003 17:00:46 GMT -5
I think that SH is going to split from the Dark One. I believe that he is controlled by the Dark One, but he has a free mind. eventually, SH will want to get some more power, and right now I believe he's giving his own orders to the other Chosen, or that he's serving a Chosen and giving his/her orders. Well, anybody can tear that crappy theory to threads.
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MatrimCauthon
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Post by MatrimCauthon on Feb 3, 2004 8:28:27 GMT -5
Well, I've just flicked through this post and the Who killed Asmo post, and the evidence that SH has been round a while seems kinda strong. About the hatred of the fades for rand & co. though, I don't see that as evidence, as all the fades probably were told who one of the three is (The dragon reborn) and they would naturally hate them. The smiling bit is harder to argue with, although the difference between smiling and having a sence of humour has been pointed out. Aginor, the biogeneticist who played a part in their accidental creation, and logically knows more than any other living (or re-living as one of the 'gars) being about the throwbacks, is shocked when it SH smiles and laughs at him, showing that other smiling fades could be SH. The bit about Bors seeing the fade as shorter than average is interesting and possible, but the one line is a bit weak to base a theory on. The idea of a specific uniquely talented fade who is the dark ones hand sent to find the 3 boys in EotW appeals to me, more so than the idea of a number of "normal" fades. I admit that I haven't thought too deeply about the subject until I read the huge amt of responses to the Q on this and other WOT sites, but the idea of SH being around always is very possible.
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MatrimCauthon
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Post by MatrimCauthon on Feb 3, 2004 8:38:35 GMT -5
As to who killed Asmo., the main suspects are Graendal and SH, although some wilder theorists have believed that " death took him " should be taken literally, in that Moridin, or Death, is the culprit, and Asmo wasn't killed, but taken to Thakan'dar or Shayol Gul. Possible? There is no evidence that Asmo has ever met Moridin, and RJ said the clues are in the books before, so probably not... Why Graendal? Did the DO send her? Did she act on her own accord after being told by Lanfear that Asmo was weakened, for personal gain? There are no actual quotes to implicate Graendal as the murderer. Where did the body go? Rand thought that he had escaped...SH can shadowtravel, but can he bring something with him? Can he travel in the "conventional" way, by Saidin, or by the True Power? Graendal certainly had the means to remove the body. I like the idea of SH being in Fal Dara & ordering Ingtar to open the gate etc., and freeing Fain, although The DO was probably not too fond of Fain at the time. In college at the moment so no quotes, but the similarity between Fains reaction and Asmos, as well as the presence of possibly fade written prophecy in the prison points towards SH. Asmos reaction is odd -"You? No!". Why would he say "You?" to a fade? It is a reaction to somebody familiar usually, pointing toward Graendal, while the "No" could be a reaction to her channelling, because he's he's too weak too stop her (Does she have the ring angreal at the time?). The main prob is that Graendal has not shown much interest in Asmodean in the books preceding his demise, and since RJ said the clues are present, somebody is going to have to put forward evidence that it was her, instead of evidence why it wasn't Sh, anmd falling back to her as the only likely alternative. I'm not going to choose either, I'm not confident in my abilities at reading subtext or "between the lines"...
p.s. Sorry about the long words, I just took a break from thesis writing, so I'm still all academic and stuff!!!
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Post by Min on Feb 5, 2004 19:24:34 GMT -5
Thanks for reading and replying
It wasn't the height of the fade in TDR that made me suspect it was SH, but the laughter. The height I mention because it is peculiar, and also because if I don't mention it, people claim that the fade is too short to be SH. And then I have to go to the trouble of explaining why it's too short for any regular fade anyway.
And yes I do believe SH can shadowtravel with someone else(or with a body). Take a look at the description on how SH delivers Moggy to Moridin. Moggy thinks he's trying to throw her through a wall, but she ends up in Moridin's manor. Her eyes are closed during this, so I can't be sure that it wasn't a gateway(which could have been woven by SH(if he can) or Moridin). But it seemed like shadowtravelling to me.
Another point for SH that I've been argueing with in other message boards, but I don't recall mentioning here, is that SH seems to be able to home in on forsaken. Take the instance of Mesaana in the WT in COT. Mesaana herself had just entered the room to answer Alviarin's call, then SH appears. I don't think he was searching the tower room for room, he knen exactly which room to enter. I think he sneaks up behind Granny at some point too, but I don't recall the specifics of that encounter.
Regardless, this shows that SH could have known how to find Asmodean, even to the point of travelling into the right closet to surprise him.
Most other characters have no better explaination for the killing than a chance meeting. Granny just happens to be hiding in the right closet for instance.(How many closets in the Palace of Camelyn)
(It's possible that Moraine or Lanfear could have used wished, but I doubt it. Some say that the "need" aspect in TAR could bring the killer to the right place. Again, doubtful)
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Post by Tinker on Feb 5, 2004 20:12:08 GMT -5
Min if SH can home in on forsaken, why would he still be able to do so with Asmo after Rand has svered his conection with the DO.
Isn't that what defines a Chosen? His/her ties to the DO. And wouldn't those be the only thing that could set them apart in such a way that SH could home in on them?
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Post by Min on Feb 5, 2004 20:47:08 GMT -5
A good question. We all saw Rand do was cut Asmodean's black cord. But, we have never seen the black cords on the female forsaken, which leads me to believe that the cords are just for taint protection(which only men need). Also, Ishy lost his cord in TEOTW but he didn't go to Rand's side. He still seemed to be tied to the DO(given the resurrections and such). Of course Ishy predominantly uses TP, so he doesn't really need taint protection.
I've only read the part where Rand cuts his bonds once though, so I could be wrong. But I'm hoping there is still a connection.
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Post by Tinker on Feb 5, 2004 21:18:47 GMT -5
At least Rand thinks he has cut Asmo off from the DO.
tSR; The traps of Rhuidean.
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Post by Min on Feb 5, 2004 22:36:09 GMT -5
Very good point.
I'm not as sure as before.
It seems Rand thinks that the cord provides immortality from the DO as well, as it well might. But I'm still not sure what the difference was with Rand cutting Ishy's cord and him cutting Asmo's cord.
*goes to go pick up TSR*
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Post by perrin on Jun 19, 2004 12:08:01 GMT -5
In that website earlier said, it says "ACoS,Ch40 - Shaidar Haran can detect One Power flows and, unlike other Myrddraal, it can smell the difference between saidin and saidar." so in TEOTW a fade was looking straight at where rand was and that could have been SH with the ability to detect and smell the ability to channel, so even though rand couldn't channel at the time SH could have been able to sense the ability
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Post by perrin on Jun 19, 2004 12:09:15 GMT -5
And some other qoutes in the website "ACoS,Ch40 - Shaidar Haran begins to feel achy and weak when it is away from Shayol Ghul for too long. CoT,Ch21 – Alviarin is terrified of Shaidar Haran, believing him to be the Great Lord incarnate"
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